Good old Bernie....

[airshifter]

I look at differently- the FIA have a sporting responsibility to ensure fairness. It has failed repeatedly throughout the years on this and in many cases covered up cheating and sabotaged drivers. I’m tired of this I’m F1. It’s about time someone did something about it.

And really when you go back to Crashgate, the winners were Renault as well as Symonds and Briatore. Though the FIA dragged their feet and imposed what seemed like harsh penalties, the penalties had no real long term impact.

[Bagwan]

More info is coming out on why Massa thinks he has a case. Apparently, after the race trophy presentation at the 2008 Brazilian GP, Nelson Piquet Sr approached Charlie Whiting to inform him of the conspiracy that occurred at the Singapore GP earlier that year. Apparently, the basis of Massa's case was that the FIA and FOM should have responded within 4 days of receiving that information by stating their course of action on the matter, they claim this is according to the F1 statutes and regulations. The basis of the case seems to be that they did not act because they conspired to act against Massa's interest; allegedly.

Now, this information alone spins up a number of theories in my head.

1. Why did Nelson Piquet not contact the FIA earlier upon knowing about the conspiracy from his son but waited several months to do so? More importantly, why did he not contact the FIA at the start of the race but at the end when the championship outcome had been decided? Mind you, decided against his fellow countryman by the slightest of margins.

2. Could it be that Charlie Whiting smelled a rat and thought there was a scheme to overturn the championship outcome?

3. Is the FIA's lack of response an actual response to say we know what you are trying to do buddy and we are not buying it?


Unfortunately, Charlie Whiting is not with us to give us a clear idea of what was and was not said. We can imagine that Mr. Whiting [RIP] would have been faced with two separate issues to analyze, namely:-

(a) Was he confronted with a fraudulent attempt to alter the outcome of the championship?

(b) How to proceed with the information about the conspiracy of Singapore.

If he had concluded that the timing of the notification was suspicious and he thought fraud was afoot, the official course of action may well have led to a former F1 champion being found guilty of attempting to commit fraud. In this case, his lack of action may have been to avoid that outcome. You have to bear in mind that the informer's son had been an active party in bringing the conspiracy about. The credibility of the informant would have seemed quite dodgy to say the least.


Timing appears to be a very crucial factor in all actions leading to this case. Because the timing of Massa's choice to challenge took several years to materialize. They seem to conveniently attribute the basis now acting to be on information originating from Bernie Ecclestone who happens to not recollect ever saying anything of the nature.

Of course, the natural reaction to this is to think Ecclestone is senile and has lost his sharp wit and sense of diplomacy. What is questionable is, did Massa already know of the Piquet-Whiting dialogue from his countryman Nelson Piquet Sr or Jr? It is certainly very hard to believe that the Piquets would not have informed Massa that same weekend or shortly after of the conspiracy and the fact that the FIA has been notified of it.

Like the delayed action to notify the FIA of conspiracy, the legal action was delayed and only came into action after the late Chalie Whiting had passed away. Conveniently, he is not present to argue the case for FIA in the action and thought process that transpired on that faithful day.

The Massa story gains sympathy on the back of the raw emotions that linger over the shameful Abu Dhabi incident where it appeared clearer than ever that the outcome of the 2021 championship may have been predetermined.

The more l look at the Massa action, the more questionable it becomes to me. You may have a different opinion of course. I am just not comfortable seeing Charlie Whiiting's name and reputation run through the mud because he is not here to defend himself. That is what it is going to come down to, he failed in his duty to act.

You seem to assume Nelson Sr. knew what had happened when it did .
Is that true ?
It may have been that junior didn't let anybody know right away , not even dad .

[Bagwan]

Piquet Sr probably did not know in Singapore. But he must have known not very long after. Which may have been not very long after the event. He must have known weeks before the Brazillian GP at least. It is not believable that he only knew about it after the final race of the season.

2008 FIA Calendar

15 28th September Singapore Grand Prix Singapore Street Circuit (night race)
16 12th October Japanese Grand Prix Fuji Speedway
17 19th October Chinese Grand Prix Shanghai International Circuit
18 2nd November Brazilian Grand Prix Autodromo Jose Carlos Pace, Interlagos, Sao Paulo

So , you don't actually know then ?

[Bagwan]

What is your point?

My point is that you are speculating about all this based on speculation that Sr. knew about the scam earlier than he let on .

Consider first that Jr. wasn't likely proud of the action . and may not have wanted anyone to know , especially Dad .
Then , think about the pressure from Flav and Renault to keep it quiet .

You also have the home town boy first "winning" the race , then , later the same lap , Lewis passing Timo for the win , breaking heart of Brazil .


All we really know is that , according to Bernie and the Piquets , they knew in time to make a decision about it .
But the decision they made , they said , did not consider it because they only found out when it was revealed the next year when they snubbed the son for the seat .

[Bagwan]

But you are claiming that in the intervening six weeks leading to the Brazilian GP, Piquet Sr did not know until the very end of the Brazilian GP after Massa had lost the title. This is simply not believable.

One of these two scenarios are basis for the credibility of the story from Massa. At what point did Piquet Sr know of the Renault conspiracy? This would form the basis of the FIA deciding whether the information is with or without a hidden agenda to overturn the championship outcome of the 2008 championship. If they thought, there was a hidden agenda, the situation was most likely not going to fall under the normal procedures of the FIA; which is defined for bonifide and credible sources of information.

Piquet Sr being an F1 champion can do the maths to work out that without the Singapore GP, the championship can be reverted to Massa.

If he knew well in advance, then why did he not notify the FIA the instant he found out? If he found out at the Brazilian GP, then at what point during the race weekend did he find out? At the start of the race, during the race, or at the very end of the race?

I think they have seen a title stolen from Hamilton and think he is a soft target and they are taking a long shot to see if they can pull it off.

If their story had any gravitas, l think Ferrari would have shown some support for their cause. This one is likely to end in an embarrassing way.

The other question is, was Piquet Sr as the source of the information, one of the recognized sources of information to activate the reaction of the FIA? we don't know that either. There are a few things we do not know.

No .
I'm saying we don't know , and giving you examples of the opposite scenario to yours .

I'm a little baffled at the use of the words "hidden agenda" , as this implies that there was something nefarious about it .
Your comments about Lewis being a "soft target" reveal your own hidden agenda .

Lewis and his fans will rightly see it as a rival trying to steal his championship , but they should remember that , Massa and his fans see it the exactly opposite way , and have done so since it was all revealed those many years ago .

Don't fall down some deep conspiracy rabbit hole over this .

Massa wants the race nullified , and given it was only 15 laps in , he maybe has a point .
He doesn't want it counted at lap 14 , as that would be half points awarded , and he'd lose out to Hamilton again .
He doesn't want to have just the Renaults removed as he'd still lose out .

If it can be actually proven that Sr. was told and then told Charly, and he told Max and Bernie within the allowable time frame , then Massa has a point .

If the FIA decides that the appropriate measure is to nullify the race , then to award him a trophy , it might be proper to call them "co-winners" or something akin to that , as it is in no way Lewis's fault .

I think it's all a bit academic , though , as first , you need to embarrass some big wigs , and a "perfect" organization , then have them chose the one of three options they have to deal with the issue .
Good luck with that .

I've met Massa , and I see him as a pouty little turd , but I wouldn't mind seeing him with a trophy , as long as Lewis doesn't lose his .